Implemented Fix Propkilling

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BARTHOLOMEW

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Server's been out about a year, and here more than SGM prop-killing has become a regular thing, more than that it's rampant here. Any map where someone can propkill, someone will, which is fun if you're 12, retarded, or learning about propkilling for the first time, but for the rest of us it got old before AHG even started up, there's no challenge, no humor, no glory, no fun to instant-killing a random with a barrel, it's something only unfunny or new players do. Not to say there can't be innovation within prop-killing, or times where it doesn't impede the gameplay like a duel, but everyone knows how to do it now, and it's fucking obnoxious, there's times where I've logged on the server, instantly been prop killed by a player/spectator, and stopped playing for weeks. In a game with guns, traitor weapons that cost credits, prop killing is completely game-breaking, and this is coming from the guy whose spent hours trying to break the game in anyway I can.

For example - what's the point of a barrel gun, or a knife, if there's a free 1 shot weapon on 60% of maps with unlimited uses? What's the point of actually playing the game instead of just doing the bare minimum of spawning in, killing people with barrels, no reason for communication or strategy or even thinking. Certain maps you have to avoid entire sections of the map as to not get cross-fired by barrels. When players approach me holding a prop, it's hard to tell if they're RDMing, asking for a duel, or a traitor, so often I won't interact and avoid them, which just makes me end up getting killed (although I guess that's my fault for trying to play 'honorably'). Additionally, if you see someone killed by a prop, you usually assume that person was in a duel or something like that, and not a threat, only to be next in line. That is fucking stupid and even further discourages people from actually playing. It is harder to RDM with a gun than a barrel but I feel like one is looked at as way worse than the other, although you literally just have to move your mouse to get 1+ kills instantly. I miss when people made jokes or had interesting strategies instead of XDDDD I KILLED YOU LOL LAUGH NOW. It's a big reason I stopped playing, as well as a few others I've talked to.

Some potential fixes are (I do not code so idk what's possible)
1) Fix barrels so they actually register as killing a player (vs killed by the world) so propkillers can be reported more often
2) Ban staff from propkilling (If staff does something it becomes accepted and trickles down to the most annoying players) (side note: staff shouldn't even be allowed to RDM each other in general, your stupid inside joke of killing other staff has gotten me and others caught up in many RDM chains over the years. I love when me and 4 others die to your little discord staff call joke! It's to the point where if I see 2 staff fight I have to ignore it and assume it's just that shit)
3) Modifying barrels in a way where they can't instant kill - add a minigame where barrels fall from the sky and the ability to kill is reenacted. Quarantine prop killers to a fun round.

There's other solutions I'm not thinking of, I mean if everyone reported prop RDM things would be a lot better, but that can only go so far. I've talked about this before, for someone to reply "Ummm.... actually the current pop actually seems pretty happy with propkilling!", which is a flawed argument, the people who don't like propkilling have left, so even if I was the only one with this opinion that's only because of survivorship bias. I've burnt out now so thread over but if you have a problem with what i said, this is you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm just a guy who wants the focus back on the game!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Nitro_Hunter

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Finally someone was able to voice what I’ve been feeling for awhile
 

waffle

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you're 100% right especially about that staff on staff rdm part has caused me just leaving the server because one staff rdms another I kill them and im about to get karma banned (usually bc of other funny rdms) I guess im kinda a hypocrite bc I used to play the way you're complaining about and I still occasionally rdm on lowpop where people arent playing the game right. But its just become annoying. Pierogi brainwashed sgm players into ahg players.
 

Gabriel

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Funny enough, to part of this Pierogi has already made a response.

I'll note that:
1) Fix barrels so they actually register as killing a player (vs killed by the world) so propkillers can be reported more often
I'll be honest idk how well this can be implemented. It should work like this already. The problems with it not working are probably because it is a 16 year old game.

3) Modifying barrels in a way where they can't instant kill - add a minigame where barrels fall from the sky and the ability to kill is reenacted. Quarantine prop killers to a fun round.
One of the source engine gurus in our community want to chime in on this to correct me but I don't think that is something that can realistically be changed. Props kill in this game and I think that's more integral to the engine it's running on more so than some server settings.

It is harder to RDM with a gun than a barrel but I feel like one is looked at as way worse than the other, although you literally just have to move your mouse to get 1+ kills instantly.
You said a lot of things before this but realistically it can be boiled down into this one sentence. Which...it just aint true. I mean unless you're some living god with props, which are notoriously inconsistent and often lead to the person attempting to throw them getting killed. Compared to the number of 1shot/ <1sec TTK weps on the server it really doesn't come close.
When players approach me holding a prop, it's hard to tell if they're RDMing, asking for a duel, or a traitor, so often I won't interact and avoid them, which just makes me end up getting killed (although I guess that's my fault for trying to play 'honorably'). Additionally, if you see someone killed by a prop, you usually assume that person was in a duel or something like that, and not a threat, only to be next in line.

When players approach you with a Colt, it's hard to tell if they're RDMing, asking for a duel, or a traitor, so often I won't interact and avoid them, which just makes me end up getting killed (although I guess that's my fault for trying to play 'honorably').
RDM happens. There's just no way around that. And propkilling is just another playstyle no matter how you slice it. Additionally, if you see someone killed by a prop, grow a backbone and kill them. They committed a T act. That will shut down propkilling faster than slays. Why are we letting people get away with it in game? It's the same as if anyone commits any RDM. If you see a player kill another player, then kill them. If you are the person getting killed, then report. Everyone has access to deathscenes and damagelogs if it says killed by world, and if you just don't feel like looking for it, that is perfectly okay. Let staff know, that's what we are here for. Which brings me to this:

2) Ban staff from propkilling (If staff does something it becomes accepted and trickles down to the most annoying players) (side note: staff shouldn't even be allowed to RDM each other in general, your stupid inside joke of killing other staff has gotten me and others caught up in many RDM chains over the years. I love when me and 4 others die to your little discord staff call joke! It's to the point where if I see 2 staff fight I have to ignore it and assume it's just that shit)
Yeah. To a certain degree you're right. As a staff team we should be setting a better example and flowing with the server. Behind the scenes we've had discussions about not just sitting in a discord call and being more active in game. In fact, unless we are talking about important staff matters, we are rarely in a staff channel. I think I've seen staff hanging out in a staff VC for non-emergencies/trial training once in the past three months. If we are joking around with each other, we do it in game, that way the server is there with us. Most of the time the server is there with us and chill and "in on the joke." But you're right. It's not like that all the time and we need to be mindful of that. Truth is we treat Staff on Staff RDM like any other RDM. If a report gets filed, it gets handled. If not, it largely goes ignored. I personally am gonna bring this up in discussions with staff because it is something that has been on my mind for a while and is something I feel is important, and a potential turn off for new players. I don't think Propkill itself is the cause, but RDM in general. And if a RDM chain happens, then staff should serve slays just like anyone else because of it.

I think part of the problem is a lot of the staff team has a kind of unspoken rule to let the server play and stay out of its way. We're here to solve problems between other players, but often we let things slide when it's done to us. We forgive most reports if we bother making one at all (even when its very blatant RDM), and like you said "it becomes accepted and trickles down to the most annoying players." I think that idea of letting it slide trickles down to some players, and because they are often loud they preach that you shouldn't report for it either, so many players can feel pressured not to report, and then problems persist. It doesn't help that some of the rhetoric from staff flirts with this too, even as a joke, not everyone is gonna get it and some people are gonna run with it. Although I will admit I've been seeing less and less of this from staff the past few months.
 

BARTHOLOMEW

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I'll be honest idk how well this can be implemented. It should work like this already. The problems with it not working are probably because it is a 16 year old game.
The entire reason propkilling even started on SGM was because people realized the blank side of the barrel when used would be near impossible to report. It's a loophole a few of us would fuck around with late at night a year ago that's evolved into a 'way to play', which it should've never become. Not sure the code cause but I feel like there's an easy fix.
One of the source engine gurus in our community want to chime in on this to correct me but I don't think that is something that can realistically be changed. Props kill in this game and I think that's more integral to the engine it's running on more so than some server settings.
I might be wrong but I remember there being an era when the server first started where propkilling was significantly harder? Might be wrong on that but I believe it was something with momentum altho I might be thinking about b-hopping, but yeah would be surprised if there was an easy fix to this one. Had other ideas that I blanked out on when I got to around there.
You said a lot of things before this but realistically it can be boiled down into this one sentence. Which...it just aint true. I mean unless you're some living god with props, which are notoriously inconsistent and often lead to the person attempting to throw them getting killed. Compared to the number of 1shot/ <1sec TTK weps on the server it really doesn't come close.


When players approach you with a Colt, it's hard to tell if they're RDMing, asking for a duel, or a traitor, so often I won't interact and avoid them, which just makes me end up getting killed (although I guess that's my fault for trying to play 'honorably').
RDM happens. There's just no way around that. And propkilling is just another playstyle no matter how you slice it. Additionally, if you see someone killed by a prop, grow a backbone and kill them. They committed a T act. That will shut down propkilling faster than slays. Why are we letting people get away with it in game? It's the same as if anyone commits any RDM. If you see a player kill another player, then kill them. If you are the person getting killed, then report. Everyone has access to deathscenes and damagelogs if it says killed by world, and if you just don't feel like looking for it, that is perfectly okay. Let staff know, that's what we are here for.
I've gone entire maps being RDMed round start because I've trolled so hard, RDM usually doesn't bug me, it's just that with prop killing you have to wait until the person gets near you or swings at you, which it only really takes one shot to die. Can you do that with a gun? Yes, but it's easy to read players body language if you've played enough, if they are constantly being shady and pointing a gun at your head ducking behind corners pacing unsure about taking a shot. When a guy with a barrel walks by, he can snap 90 degrees and kill you without ever looking in your direction, and they often don't care about the communication or stealth because who is going to kill a prop killer? Often no one, a prop isn't a T weapon and most people find it funny to let them do their thing. Where is the fun or mystery in that? Thats very low quality gameplay for a mystery/communication based game. Granted sometimes you get headshot, by a gun, instantly and that's it - this game has a roulette factor for sure that's why I like it - I just see that as more valid to be killed by a gun, either by being outsmarted or out-stealthed, in a gun game, than killed by a glitch. Barrels are slightly larger than bullets, and I'd argue easier to get more kills than certain T weapons and even guns with just the prop which fundamentally upsets the game's meta. Additionally - barrel kills don't leave DNA, like a lot of stuff does. You really don't even have to aim just turn in the general direction of the player fast. It is not that hard to get a barrel kill, especially when they are on a good chunk of the maps.
My main problem is barrel prop killing leads to the most braindead gameplay possible. It discourages innovation with weapons, discourages communication/stealth, and encourages them to instead play on autopilot, in my eyes its a glitch that runs against everything I like about the game. And worst of all it isn't even funny.
I do agree with killing propkillers, again it's just hard to see who is dueling and who is trying to kill until you're dead. You bring up the point of reporting being discouraged by players specifically when it comes to propkill, and I am a very anti-reporting person, but I agree and have started reporting for it a lot more lately. I don't want to go to a corner of the map I know as a propkill PVP zone, kill someone having a duel, get killed, have to report then respond to a report and fight a guy in VC (altho that sounds fun im lazy). I used to propfly and use props to make ladders/hide in props, so I try to give extra wiggle room (although no one even does those anymore so I shouldn't). Either way, I think it's still a fundamental game problem that needs either rules or a coding fix
Truth is we treat Staff on Staff RDM like any other RDM. If a report gets filed, it gets handled. If not, it largely goes ignored.

I think part of the problem is a lot of the staff team has a kind of unspoken rule to let the server play and stay out of its way. We're here to solve problems between other players, but often we let things slide when it's done to us. We forgive most reports if we bother making one at all (even when its very blatant RDM), and like you said "it becomes accepted and trickles down to the most annoying players." I think that idea of letting it slide trickles down to some players, and because they are often loud they preach that you shouldn't report for it either, so many players can feel pressured not to report, and then problems persist. It doesn't help that some of the rhetoric from staff flirts with this too, even as a joke, not everyone is gonna get it and some people are gonna run with it. Although I will admit I've been seeing less and less of this from staff the past few months.
I'm sure that's the case, but why would staff report their staff friends though? Unless there's a rule, no staff will report each other and be a bad sport, but maybe I'm wrong. I just know I refuse to report for the most part, especially my friends. I think that's a big factor the trickle down thing, and I agree I think staff can sometimes be a little too jokey/'enabling' of certain shit, but I've been inactive for a while, so a lot of these takes are from right before I stopped playing when things seemed to be the most extreme. The problems I talked about could definitely be lesser now, but when I see them still happening after months/over a year still happening it makes me feel weird. But I would agree I don't think its as bad as it was, I just really don't want that shit to kick up again
 

Gabriel

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The entire reason propkilling even started on SGM was because people realized the blank side of the barrel when used would be near impossible to report.
I'll be honest, propkills are some of the easiest reports to handle as staff. I don't know if you've ever looked at a propkill deathscene, but it shows all props that are touched and its very easy to tell who is holding what.
I might be wrong but I remember there being an era when the server first started where propkilling was significantly harder? Might be wrong on that but I believe it was something with momentum altho I might be thinking about b-hopping
I think you're thinking about b-hopping. Although a recent update kinda fucked up physics so, at least at the moment, it's kinda hard to prop kill again. Maybe that's why we are seeing a drop off, maybe its because people are getting bored of it.

When a guy with a barrel walks by, he can snap 90 degrees and kill you without ever looking in your direction, and they often don't care about the communication or stealth
Don't hug a guy with a shotgun, dont hug a guy with a barrel. And cmon, how many people ever really care about communication or stealth. The most communication in this game is done through keybinds that are usually all set up to be a joke, and VC in game is always reserved for talking about whatever the dumb shit of the day is. People don't play this game like among us. TTT (not just AHG) rules reflect that. There is a heavy amount of shoot first/ask questions later.

Granted sometimes you get headshot, by a gun, instantly and that's it
*Often
Its probably 90% of all deaths. The meta revolves around weps that are one shot headshots. If you ask me it is infinitely more boring to be shot in the head at round start bc waffle is sad he wasn't able to grow up making cod montages than being hit by a barrel. Being shot is just so...boring. Hitreg is whack so its usually about who can get the most bullets out at once, thats why AN94 reigns supreme. And often time it isn't just some guy floating around you to shoot you in the head, it's someone popping out of a corner for half a second, firing once, and then thats it. You don't get to play anymore. I'm not gonna say remove the m14 because of it.
I'd argue easier to get more kills than certain T weapons and even guns with just the prop which fundamentally upsets the game's meta
You'd argue, but you'd be wrong. Like, statistically. Weapons will always be superior. (Side note though what if shotguns knocked props out of peoples hands?) The Tec 9 is probably the only thing that could stack up. As far as T weapons go, the only one that probably doesn't fair well compared to props is the harpoon, and thats just because the harpoon can be inconsistent, even though it can be shot through walls. It being able to shoot through walls is a glitch that fundamentally upsets the game's meta, bhopping is a glitch that fundamentally upsets the game's meta, crouch spamming... well it causes your hitbox to spaz and fundamentally upset the games meta. Throwing a prop is another way to play the game, and an easy one to avoid. Or at least easier to avoid than most other weapons.
Additionally - barrel kills don't leave DNA, like a lot of stuff does
Actually if I remember correctly you can get DNA off of the prop itself. But aside from that... Yeah sure. Neither do mid-long range kills with any other weapon, but those aren't being removed.
It discourages innovation with weapons
I think every one tap hs wep we add does this. With the exception of the remington, every single time it happens we're just adding pretty much the same gun. There is no varied gameplay. Thats why we add upgrades that radically change how Ts can play, like the newton jump or being able to poltergeist players. The latter of which has given me some of the most fun in this game in years. And none of it is ruined by prop killing. I just don't think it's as common anymore.
You really don't even have to aim just turn in the general direction of the player fast. It is not that hard to get a barrel kill, especially when they are on a good chunk of the maps.
Put your money where your mouth is. Do it. I dare you
I don't want to go to a corner of the map I know as a propkill PVP zone, kill someone having a duel, get killed, have to report then respond to a report and fight a guy in VC
Then that's your decision. Those are two people havin fun, you can see it as such or you can...inject new fun. Kill one of the players, call a KOS, if they report, who cares? It's staff's problem. Not yours. You were in the right. You are looking at it as if it's fundamentally different to two people shooting at each other when it just isn't. Honestly, they are just using a different flavor of shotgun.

why would staff report their staff friends though?
If two new players join the server and they kill each other every round, but aren't harming anyone else on the server, we won't do anything to them unless one of them asks us to. Why would we ruin their fun? They aren't hurting anyone. When staff kills staff, it's largely that. Just friends goofing around. And for the most part we don't report unless it goes too far (cough cough twice I have been forced to sit out three straight maps bc I kept getting round started by staff (and none of it was prop kill btw) cough cough). And yeah, it's not fun when things go too far, but mostly we handle it internally. Sometimes a slay will be served for it, but a lot of the time we just talk it out like adults. The times I'm concerned for are the times like you said where it causes a chain, and then random users get hurt. And that we have to be more mindful of. Aside from that, I think as a community we do pretty well. I mean, as a whole this is a pretty big but still tight knit community. And it fucking blows my mind how more often than not regulars in this community will work out their conflicts through the game. Not everyone, but a lot of people have kinda mellowed out. They treat one another with respect.
tl;dr on this bit is that im not gonna do anything against friends just being friends, we should worry about it when it hurts other people. And i'll be honest i don't really care if karma gets affected.
 

Titan

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prop killing was born as an innovation because it served as a challenge to those who were bored of every round just being headshot wars

It still can be fun, when it's isolated. I enjoyed prop killing as a traitor because the concept left people confused as what to do, and it was fun to manipulate and gaslight people into not shooting me as I freely kill in front of them. But, it's oversaturated.

In response to your first paragraph, I do think you're underselling the difficulty of prop killing (which is a large part of your argument). It's more challenging than you make it out to be, and there definitely still is fun to be had with it. That said, fuck spectator prop killing. I've already spelled out my opinions about that.

For example - what's the point of a barrel gun, or a knife, if there's a free 1 shot weapon on 60% of maps with unlimited uses? What's the point of actually playing the game instead of just doing the bare minimum of spawning in, killing people with barrels, no reason for communication or strategy or even thinking.
I never used the barrel gun left click, but the right click is clutch for group kills. As for the knife, it's excellent for stealth. It's quiet, low-profile, discrete, and it's really good for getting a sneaky kill in a big group and getting away with it.

Park touched on this, as did you, but prop killing only grows so much as the meta when it's not resisted. It's only remotely feasible as a playstyle because people don't react to it. I have never condoned the visceral response that some take when an affront is made to prop killing. That's part of the problem. The official rules, however, are pretty unforgiving to those who want to propkill.

I do not think this is a coding problem. I do not think it's a rules problem. It's a status quo problem, and we will never be able to shift the status quo to please everyone who plays.

So, start resisting. I'm fine with normal prop killing, but like I said before, I despise spec prop killing. So, I was vocal about my disdain towards it, and I reported when it happened to me, even if it was my good friends (w/out forgiving), and eventually the message got across and I stopped getting spec prop killed for the most part. Maybe the status quo will shift back towards a central point if there was more resistance to prop killers, both with reports, and by just killing them once they start trying to kill. But to me, trying to solve this by creating a new hard-ass ruleset and enforcing it strongly feels entirely against the spirit of this place.

That said, perhaps a discussion about staff conduct regarding the points you've brought up might be beneficial. I strongly advocate against making rules specifically against staff, but I'd be interested to see what was brought up.

I look forward to seeing your response, and more opinions on this thread. I thoroughly appreciate you writing it out, I think it's a really good conversation that we ought to have.
 

optimal

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bhopping was already removed and it was a bad solution because bhoppers simply wouldn’t play anymore. solution was and still is combobs, and now boogie bombs.

even if there was a way to remove propkilling, a lot of ppl (larger than bhoppers) wouldn’t play.
 

Black

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Server's been out about a year, and here more than SGM prop-killing has become a regular thing, more than that it's rampant here. Any map where someone can propkill, someone will, which is fun if you're 12, retarded, or learning about propkilling for the first time, but for the rest of us it got old before AHG even started up, there's no challenge, no humor, no glory, no fun to instant-killing a random with a barrel, it's something only unfunny or new players do. Not to say there can't be innovation within prop-killing, or times where it doesn't impede the gameplay like a duel, but everyone knows how to do it now, and it's fucking obnoxious, there's times where I've logged on the server, instantly been prop killed by a player/spectator, and stopped playing for weeks. In a game with guns, traitor weapons that cost credits, prop killing is completely game-breaking, and this is coming from the guy whose spent hours trying to break the game in anyway I can.
For example - what's the point of a barrel gun, or a knife, if there's a free 1 shot weapon on 60% of maps with unlimited uses? What's the point of actually playing the game instead of just doing the bare minimum of spawning in, killing people with barrels, no reason for communication or strategy or even thinking. Certain maps you have to avoid entire sections of the map as to not get cross-fired by barrels. When players approach me holding a prop, it's hard to tell if they're RDMing, asking for a duel, or a traitor, so often I won't interact and avoid them, which just makes me end up getting killed (although I guess that's my fault for trying to play 'honorably'). Additionally, if you see someone killed by a prop, you usually assume that person was in a duel or something like that, and not a threat, only to be next in line. That is fucking stupid and even further discourages people from actually playing. It is harder to RDM with a gun than a barrel but I feel like one is looked at as way worse than the other, although you literally just have to move your mouse to get 1+ kills instantly. I miss when people made jokes or had interesting strategies instead of XDDDD I KILLED YOU LOL LAUGH NOW. It's a big reason I stopped playing, as well as a few others I've talked to.

Some potential fixes are (I do not code so idk what's possible)
1) Fix barrels so they actually register as killing a player (vs killed by the world) so propkillers can be reported more often
2) Ban staff from propkilling (If staff does something it becomes accepted and trickles down to the most annoying players) (side note: staff shouldn't even be allowed to RDM each other in general, your stupid inside joke of killing other staff has gotten me and others caught up in many RDM chains over the years. I love when me and 4 others die to your little discord staff call joke! It's to the point where if I see 2 staff fight I have to ignore it and assume it's just that shit)
3) Modifying barrels in a way where they can't instant kill - add a minigame where barrels fall from the sky and the ability to kill is reenacted. Quarantine prop killers to a fun round.

There's other solutions I'm not thinking of, I mean if everyone reported prop RDM things would be a lot better, but that can only go so far. I've talked about this before, for someone to reply "Ummm.... actually the current pop actually seems pretty happy with propkilling!", which is a flawed argument, the people who don't like propkilling have left, so even if I was the only one with this opinion that's only because of survivorship bias. I've burnt out now so thread over but if you have a problem with what i said, this is you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm just a guy who wants the focus back on the game!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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My main issue with propkilling is that you can't protect yourself until they have thrown it which is an instant kill. So there's literally no 'legal' counter play and when the whole server is doing it it's just zZZzzzz
 

gerafe

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i used to propkill people in 2011 on richland and u can bet all ur money imma keep doing it till the day i die
 

Sam The Fluffy One

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I get it's a problem but you're going up against the entire gmod community trying to ruin a game mechanic that's been around for over a decade
 

Pierogi

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Server's been out about a year, and here more than SGM prop-killing has become a regular thing, more than that it's rampant here. Any map where someone can propkill, someone will, which is fun if you're 12, retarded, or learning about propkilling for the first time, but for the rest of us it got old before AHG even started up, there's no challenge, no humor, no glory, no fun to instant-killing a random with a barrel, it's something only unfunny or new players do. Not to say there can't be innovation within prop-killing, or times where it doesn't impede the gameplay like a duel, but everyone knows how to do it now, and it's fucking obnoxious, there's times where I've logged on the server, instantly been prop killed by a player/spectator, and stopped playing for weeks. In a game with guns, traitor weapons that cost credits, prop killing is completely game-breaking, and this is coming from the guy whose spent hours trying to break the game in anyway I can.

I get it's a problem but you're going up against the entire gmod community trying to ruin a game mechanic that's been around for over a decade
We don't have to get ableist man...
 

Gabriel

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the second you start making gameplay rules for staff that differ from the rest of the community, you end up with a shitty, unappreciated staff team. shit takes.

don't let history repeat itself. this is just the same story in a different year. i know a wavy server that might be more your style
But helix…wasn’t this from back in the good old days of gmod where people only used guns and strategy and stealth? This forum post must be doctored evidence. It’s not representative of my tactical espionage action game
 

Virunas

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the second you start making gameplay rules for staff that differ from the rest of the community, you end up with a shitty, unappreciated staff team. shit takes.

don't let history repeat itself. this is just the same story in a different year. i know a wavy server that might be more your style
How do i give multiple agree reacts to one post
 
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