Implemented Fix Propkilling

[BARTHOLOMEW]

Server's been out about a year, and here more than SGM prop-killing has become a regular thing, more than that it's rampant here. Any map where someone can propkill, someone will, which is fun if you're 12, retarded, or learning about propkilling for the first time, but for the rest of us it got old before AHG even started up, there's no challenge, no humor, no glory, no fun to instant-killing a random with a barrel, it's something only unfunny or new players do. Not to say there can't be innovation within prop-killing, or times where it doesn't impede the gameplay like a duel, but everyone knows how to do it now, and it's fucking obnoxious, there's times where I've logged on the server, instantly been prop killed by a player/spectator, and stopped playing for weeks. In a game with guns, traitor weapons that cost credits, prop killing is completely game-breaking, and this is coming from the guy whose spent hours trying to break the game in anyway I can.

For example - what's the point of a barrel gun, or a knife, if there's a free 1 shot weapon on 60% of maps with unlimited uses? What's the point of actually playing the game instead of just doing the bare minimum of spawning in, killing people with barrels, no reason for communication or strategy or even thinking. Certain maps you have to avoid entire sections of the map as to not get cross-fired by barrels. When players approach me holding a prop, it's hard to tell if they're RDMing, asking for a duel, or a traitor, so often I won't interact and avoid them, which just makes me end up getting killed (although I guess that's my fault for trying to play 'honorably'). Additionally, if you see someone killed by a prop, you usually assume that person was in a duel or something like that, and not a threat, only to be next in line. That is fucking stupid and even further discourages people from actually playing. It is harder to RDM with a gun than a barrel but I feel like one is looked at as way worse than the other, although you literally just have to move your mouse to get 1+ kills instantly. I miss when people made jokes or had interesting strategies instead of XDDDD I KILLED YOU LOL LAUGH NOW. It's a big reason I stopped playing, as well as a few others I've talked to.

Some potential fixes are (I do not code so idk what's possible)
1) Fix barrels so they actually register as killing a player (vs killed by the world) so propkillers can be reported more often
2) Ban staff from propkilling (If staff does something it becomes accepted and trickles down to the most annoying players) (side note: staff shouldn't even be allowed to RDM each other in general, your stupid inside joke of killing other staff has gotten me and others caught up in many RDM chains over the years. I love when me and 4 others die to your little discord staff call joke! It's to the point where if I see 2 staff fight I have to ignore it and assume it's just that shit)
3) Modifying barrels in a way where they can't instant kill - add a minigame where barrels fall from the sky and the ability to kill is reenacted. Quarantine prop killers to a fun round.

There's other solutions I'm not thinking of, I mean if everyone reported prop RDM things would be a lot better, but that can only go so far. I've talked about this before, for someone to reply "Ummm.... actually the current pop actually seems pretty happy with propkilling!", which is a flawed argument, the people who don't like propkilling have left, so even if I was the only one with this opinion that's only because of survivorship bias. I've burnt out now so thread over but if you have a problem with what i said, this is you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm just a guy who wants the focus back on the game!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Titan]

I meant more like others being propkilled ive seen moments where a new player joins the server and gets insta propkilled by a innocent and just leaves for a different server where they just wont get normally get insta rdmed like that

the same as park, I am intently studious about this. I make damn sure that the game is always as approachable as possible for new players, especially from my staff members. But sometimes it unfortunately happens anyway. Maybe it happens too often still.

 

[Gabriel]

the same as park, I am intently studious about this. I make damn sure that the game is always as approachable as possible for new players, especially from my staff members. But sometimes it unfortunately happens anyway. Maybe it happens too often still.

We need a CSS textures tutorial honestly, that seems to be the number 1 new player complaint

 

[Desert]

We need a CSS textures tutorial honestly, that seems to be the number 1 new player complaint

Not to get too far off-topic, but yes we really need a thread on AHG's Forums that runs through the options for solving a CS:S textures/errors problem. Had someone ask me today how to get them. Honestly I don't like linking the old SGM thread about CS:S textures because I don't even know if that ancient solution still works (dunno because i have CS:S) and also it's simply not the AHG forums. Simple advantage to linking a new, fresh tutorial on AHG forums is that the newcomer can see what our community is like before/during their first session and it could help to give them a positive first impression.

 

[Gabriel]

Not to get too far off-topic, but yes we really need a thread on AHG's Forums that runs through the options for solving a CS:S textures/errors problem. Had someone ask me today how to get them. Honestly I don't like linking the old SGM thread about CS:S textures because I don't even know if that ancient solution still works (dunno because i have CS:S) and also it's simply not the AHG forums. Simple advantage to linking a new, fresh tutorial on AHG forums is that the newcomer can see what our community is like before/during their first session and it could help to give them a positive first impression.

if I remember correctly the reason the download link isn’t on AHGs site is bc it’s technically pirating.

 

[Desert]

if I remember correctly the reason the download link isn’t on AHGs site is bc it’s technically pirating.

Figured as much, nonetheless a post explaining why they see errors and not textures and showing them how to get it (even if it's just saying to buy CS:S) would go a long way. Such a post could be linked through chat announcements on the server or through something like !notextures.

 

[Nitro_Hunter]

This is a fucking horrible take, so fucking stupid that I don't even care about the propkilling shit anymore. It seems like the majority of your time in this community has been at the top of the staff team, or within the staff team's echo chamber, rather than playing with/surrounded by the player-base, noticing how these things affect gameplay and player-base on a small scale. Notice how everyone who agrees is current staff or ex-staff for likely years? Crazy! Bias perhaps ?

Who fucking cares that ONE guy on SGM, TEN YEARS AGO, decided to resign over prop killing? In the post the guy says the only reason he played was to prop kill. Not to moderate, but to prop kill, and that he was playing for fun - if you volunteer as staff, you sacrifice the ability to consistently have fun in ways you did before. It's the responsibility of the position - if you are playing for the sole reasons of friends or power or propkilling, and would resign if those changed, rather than helping the server regardless, you ARE a shitty staff member and should've never been staff in the first place. You are staff to serve the server, not entertain yourself. That's how staff has functioned in EVERY community I have been in besides these two. And guess what? AHG/SGM had some of the most obnoxious and disliked staff in any community I've been in, the most annoying inside joke - clique bullshit I've ever seen at times. Talk to players, not staff about this. Most PLAYERS (the group you NEED to be catering to, not staff members) would agree with most of this, and ofc staff will disagree. Staff shouldn't be some awesome club where you can do most things a player can but with a colored name and power, that breeds the clique mentality, while restraint brings responsibility and dedication to the server, not to it's staffers. It is a job and 'appreciation' shouldn't be a factor.

The servers I staffed for at 12 had more rules, responsibilities, and guidelines for staff than I've ever been considered here - some of which 'gameplay' rules - and they had significantly better community relationships/less problems/quality gameplay than they would without. How is it a shit take to say there should be stricter staff rules, forcing staff to a higher standard of gameplay??? Or make them 'underappreciated' - do you actually think players appreciate staff, right now, besides those who want staff? No, they don't, players don't go around praising staff for doing the job they signed up for. But they WILL get mad when staff gets to troll and do shit a player can do sometimes, while they personally get punished for similar actions, this is what lead to a lot of the problems when Andy/Sanchez was mod as just one example - some staff would hyper-moderate while other staff were allowed to do exactly what the banned players did, but there was never really any punishment given to either side, which really puts a wall between staff and players and makes staff seem above everything. Yeah that specific problem is better now, but the point is that without guidelines, for the most part staff is allowed to troll as hard as players are, there will always be the chance of hypocrisy or a similar problem arriving in a different area, the server will dip in quality. If there's no written difference in the way mods play to how players do, that's pretty dumb and something that, in my experience, is unique to this community.

If you are staff, you are doing volunteer work, it is a job, and as a worker at a job, you are reflective of the server and the server's quality. Your goal as staff is to MODERATE and be an example. You aren't supposed to have fun - that's not the promise of a job, that isn't even an aspect of the job. Should you be able to have fun as staff? Sure, but it has to be within the confines of the actual game, instead of doing glitch shit. The rules shouldn't be catering to mods who don't actually want to treat their job professionally, at the very LEAST, but we shouldn't have staff members who don't enjoy playing the game they are moderating. The rules shouldn't be based on how much fun mods are having, or based on what 1 guy did 10 years ago, but based on quality and based on what players want. If they resign over something like not being able to have fun prop killing, sounds like your staff team's shit already, putting self serving inside jokes before gameplay quality. Staff is a duty with obligations, to baby staff members who volunteered themselves is so unbelievably fucking stupid and caters to the worst crowd possible.

When I applied for Minecraft, a game which I genuinely dislike (yet have 10+ years of community experience in), I did it because I knew I was the one for the job, that in the entire community I was likely the 1 person who could actually had history running server networks. I knew the mistakes that would be made before they would be made because I've seen them time and time again. After a year of trolling, I fucked off changed my persona completely, put in my app. What did I get? Paragraphs from the staff hivemind about how I joked once in game and that means I am evil and should never be allowed to staff, while some of these staff were being even more obnoxious and breaking more rules than I had. I wasn't a part of their cool friend group so I'm evil!!!!! So I stopped even joking because I put duty above my own personal wants, helping and building the server. Was it boring? Fuck yes. But if you are staff it shouldn't be about you. I tried my best to improve the server while also being extremely cautious about my persona and the image I was sending to the community. I didn't go around doing game breaking shit in Minecraft, let alone glitches that instant kill people, although I dislike the game and get extremely bored by it, and very quickly, I respected the game, the community, and the quality of the server itself.

How is it crazy to think mods should be held to a higher gameplay standard and quality than players???????? That's the entire fucking point of staff. To improve the server. Saying "hey don't cheese, play the game it's meant to be played" to staff members is the end of the world because 1 guy 10 years ago? Back to a point I made earlier as an example, of staff RDMing each other. Why would a mod ever report another mod unless forced to? There's little to no possibility staff would punish staff - no incentive at all. Which means it is essentially allowed. I wouldn't report a friend for killing me, but I'm not staff, again there's a sense of duty. If that would discourage staff from killing each other in game, and would send the message that joke RDM leads to RDM chains which ruins multiple people's round. I know how RDM chain slays work, but I don't think I ever saw a staff serving slays for the chain they created. This proposal would really only benefit the game, however, this is a gameplay rule so staff would quit - and worst of all - people might not appreciate the staff team

He’s right you know, if you disagree with him you also deny the Holocaust and support Chinese people

 

[optimal]

imagine the smell

 

[Bonks]

: (

 

[Nathan776]

I think I got the main points but god this thread is long so I probably missed some lol

I'm assuming the suggestion isn't denied because they may look into rectifying the killed by the world issue.
I don't really like prop killing for various reasons but its been pretty core to the community since very early on either through a lack of enforcement or staff themselves enabling it. It was part of my understanding that when transitioning from SGM to AHG that staff would be far more lenient on rules as it would enable users to have a more enjoyable experience. I don't know if this necessarily always creates a great TTT experience but I would be concerned about how changing such rules would effect the current playerbase. Personally I prefer servers with stricter rule sets and enforcement but that's not what AHG is.
One thing that might be achievable is running an in-game survey (I can't imagine it would be too hard to code if its not available, similar to motd pop ups) for users with 30 minutes+ playtime asking "How much do you like AHG's rules surrounding propkilling" & "How consistently do you find the rules around propkilling are enforced?" 1 to 5 rating dislike-like. Once you've got some results, you'd have something more concrete to base some actions from.
I don't really have a solid enough opinion on Moderators breaking rules. I'm of 2 minds because I in general don't like it happening but I don't think moderators should be treated significantly different to a player.

 

[The Memelord]

I like having the moderators break rules because that gives me a pass to break the rules as well!

 

[Gabriel]

I agree with all of your response, and honestly an in game survey wouldn't be a terrible idea (especially since I don't think a lot of our more active playerbase check the forums often or at all).

I don't really have a solid enough opinion on Moderators breaking rules. I'm of 2 minds because I in general don't like it happening but I don't think moderators should be treated significantly different to a player.

With this specifically I feel that Mods are always going to eventually break rules, like every player does, mainly because they are human and they make mistakes. But I dont think it should really be handled differently from other players. I feel as if most mods when they first start are usually coming out of how they would play as a normal player. That is kind of what the trial mod phase is for, not just for learning server rules and how to handle punishments, but also for.... toning it down a bit (beating it out of them). I mean, take a look at how much Prozakk has changed. So what I see is new mods transitioning into people that don't RDM as often, and usually this happens through a combination of pressure from higher staff, pressure from other players, and/or each mods own personal beliefs. However on the flip side of this I've seen older staff start slipping back into old habits. Usually within good taste. I attribute it to longstanding staff being more accepted and chill with the community. By the community they are seen as just regular players, instead of just someone with a different color name. While sometimes this can lead to staff getting a little too comfortable with breaking a rule (like I said, usually within good taste, but not always), I think overall this is a very healthy place for this community to be. Because my god the absolute worst communities to be in are the ones where there is a huge disconnect between Staff and Non-Staff.

EDIT: I'd also like to add that as a staff team we really do value the input from everyone else on the staff team. Its why when we had the whole Ethan debate there were quite a few moderators signing it as well as higher staff. I can say that, as a moderator, I would feel comfortable calling Pierogi out on bullshit if I ever needed to, and I know that whatever I had to say would be taken into consideration. It doesn't get seen a lot because it mostly stays in staff chat or what have you, but in game if a staff member of any rank is taking something too far, you will often see it called out by another staff member

 

[Black]

I'd like to propose a union. The Anti-barrel Union. The higher ups don't want to listen to our demands so we will make them. People have the right to propkill but you have the 2nd ammendment. Even if they aren't trying to propkill you, you should intervene and PUNISH those BASTARDS. We'll make them pay for attempting to propkill. We will ruin their fun. If we don't get to have fun NO ONE DOES!

 

[Nitro_Hunter]

Once the staff publicly remembers the Holocaust then I’ll listen

 

[Nitro_Hunter]

The Chinese devil will not prevail over your minds don’t worry

 

[optimal]

before this thread gets any more twisted:

the real loophole is that blame for propkilling is all dependent on if you press right click to release or not. coding fix is out of the question. TTT considers this a "crushed by a prop" death. the "blank side of a barrel" is just the best way to hold the prop for propkilling.

for users with 30 minutes+ playtime asking "How much do you like AHG's rules surrounding propkilling" & "How consistently do you find the rules around propkilling are enforced?"

when I played SGM 2018-2020, there were never "rules surrounding propkilling". it's just an alternative way to kill, and it's entirely dependent on the victim to report.

I like having the moderators break rules because that gives me a pass to break the rules as well!

why did the topic shift to "staff team propkilling"? Bart briefly mentioned that staff-on-staff RDM can lead to RDM chains. and this isn't even exclusive to staff. yes, this does blatantly happen the majority of the time.

you're 100% right especially about that staff on staff rdm part has caused me just leaving the server because one staff rdms another I kill them and im about to get karma banned (usually bc of other funny rdms) I guess im kinda a hypocrite bc I used to play the way you're complaining about and I still occasionally rdm on lowpop where people arent playing the game right. But its just become annoying. Pierogi brainwashed sgm players into ahg players.

we unban karma bans all the time on low pop, at least I do. if you roundstart 4 people, stay banned. if it's low pop goofing around, ask for an unban. even during high pop times, you will get unbanned if it's goofing around, although with reduced karma.

My main issue with propkilling is that you can't protect yourself until they have thrown it which is an instant kill. So there's literally no 'legal' counter play and when the whole server is doing it it's just zZZzzzz

"My main issue with 1 taps is that you can't protect yourself until they have shot which is an instant kill." you need the perfect setup for a first try propkill. if you don't stand AFK holstered, you can defend yourself.

I meant more like others being propkilled ive seen moments where a new player joins the server and gets insta propkilled by a innocent and just leaves

staff especially try to avoid RDMing new players. even when a new player walks over unid body, or GBA to something, I literally have to metagame and ignore it, because I would ruin their experience as a new player.

"but why would staff report their staff friends though?" ... "I just know I refuse to report for the most part, especially my friends."

nobody reports people who they are cool with. this is a "mental database". not exclusive to staff. staff are friends. you were staff.

if you were killed by the world (or loophole above), you can type !report, and simply report a staff member explaining the situation. staff will look into it.

where is the strategy/stealth in playing the game like it's CSS? I would have fun, but nobody would play.

For example - what's the point of a barrel gun, or a knife, if there's a free 1 shot weapon on 60% of maps with unlimited uses?

this could mean literally any 1 tap pistol (100% of maps if you count pointshop).

it's hard to tell if they're RDMing, asking for a duel, or a traitor, so often I won't interact and avoid them, which just makes me end up getting killed (although I guess that's my fault for trying to play 'honorably')

shoot and kill someone trying to propkill you. you can kill for barrels being thrown at you. now you aren't in their "mental database". instead you will be shot down and probably 1 tapped because you ruined their fun.

it seems like there is a problem with propkilling at all, even when used to defend yourself as Inno, or used as a weapon as Traitor.

 

[Vent Xekart]

i will start shooting at everyone who swings a prop and also i will be reporting every time i get prop rdmed from now on fuck you prop heads

Welcome to my world.

 

[Nuclear Onion]

I'd like to propose a union. The Anti-barrel Union. The higher ups don't want to listen to our demands so we will make them. People have the right to propkill but you have the 2nd ammendment. Even if they aren't trying to propkill you, you should intervene and PUNISH those BASTARDS. We'll make them pay for attempting to propkill. We will ruin their fun. If we don't get to have fun NO ONE DOES!

Interesting way to suggest getting a barrel to the skull when you interfere in the heat of battle.

 

[Syn]

yeah i disagree

 

[FrozenArctic]

lol

 

[Bonks]

smh my head