Invalid Report Against 8bitfox

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Sir Hymen Buster

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Your IGN
Sir Hymen Buster​
Your SteamID
STEAM_0:0:66039272`​
Reported Person's IGN
8bitfox​
Reported Person's SteamID
STEAM_0:0:59807106​
Explain the situation
I honestly do not wish to report but this was horrible handling of the situation and insulting. I do not wish 8bitfox to be demoted or any repercussions but to understand that further actions should have been done than how it was dealt with.​
Witnesses: @allyourmoney and @gilbert; plenty of others​
1. One two maps a guy named Juan Deag was rdming. On the City Center map, Juan Deag walks up to Gilbert at the start of the round and crowbars him to death. I kill Juan Deag and get reported. I respond that you rdm a mod at the start of the round and you wonder why you get reported.​
2. Next map, is de_crash, Juan Deag explicitly says he does not know how to play. Juan Deag is detective that shoots several people where its clearly just mass rdm and continues to shoot in my direction. I go around and kill him. He reports me, and my response is that this person needs to be banned for toxicity.​
3. 8bitfox does not investigate the report instead sees an inno (me) killed a detective and responds with one of the screenshots below.​
4. I reply that he must have the wrong report.​
5. Allofyourmoney says 1000 times its bullshit that Hymen is getting slain while this guy is blatantly rdming​
5. Instead of looking further into or removing the slays I get slain twice for killing a detective.​
6. Juan Deag says get fukt Hymen​
7. Juan Deag gets banned for group trolling​
Again, this is not for sending repercussions toward 8bitfox. 8Bitfox, I do not hold grudges against mods/admins you guys do this for free and you have handled numerous reports for me and against me. 8bit is never biased. I just hope this is taken as a learning experience because this could have been handled better. You could have removed the slays and we could have discussed the situation at hand instead I served two slays for a mass troll/rdmer who then gets banned.​
The screenshots are not in any particular order:​
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RyanHighman

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I cant find 8bits name in here, but I tagged him in discord. Same as roy, his admin
 

Sir Hymen Buster

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Additional screenshots on the outcome of everyting
 

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RyanHighman

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For readings sake, are the images in the original report in chronological order?
 

RyanHighman

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RyanHighman

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2. You may kill a detective if they are shooting at you with an intention to kill.

And I do believe we had it in the rules at some point, but I don't see it being removed in the changelog, that if a detective is just killing players indiscriminately you are allowed to kill them.
1st is true, 2nd was never in the rules
 

8BitF0x

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Heya, I will be responding to all the list and giving my thoughts and opinions provided with evidence.

1. One two maps a guy named Juan Deag was rdming. On the City Center map, Juan Deag walks up to Gilbert at the start of the round and crowbars him to death. I kill Juan Deag and get reported. I respond that you rdm a mod at the start of the round and you wonder why you get reported.
For this, I did handle this report. At the time being, I did not know that Juan Deag Man was currently Group Trolling or RDMing at this point since his response was "new to this game have no idea what im doing lol" and Gilbert forgave them; I decided that was that and just a misunderstanding.
8nWB222pV6vo.png

2. Next map, is de_crash, Juan Deag explicitly says he does not know how to play. Juan Deag is detective that shoots several people where its clearly just mass rdm and continues to shoot in my direction. I go around and kill him. He reports me, and my response is that this person needs to be banned for toxicity.
You claim "they continues to shoot in my direction" when that's not correct. I have provided a deathscene recording to prove that. Since you killed the detective and your report response didn't add up, I gave you 2 slays. One for the RDM and another for metagaming.
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3. 8bitfox does not investigate the report instead sees an inno (me) killed a detective and responds with one of the screenshots below.
That is incorrect, I did investigate the report. I did see that he did murdered a ton of innocents hence why I said "agreed, but unfortunately metagaming". At this point I didn't know they had a friend online and I should've checked earlier, but that doesn't stop the fact that I was now actively keeping an eye on them now.

4. I reply that he must have the wrong report.
I was confused why you sent this as I knew I had the right report, but after you sent this I double checked to see if I did and I was correct. Although I'm still confused what you meant by this and asked for clarification and never received any.

5. Allofyourmoney says 1000 times its bullshit that Hymen is getting slain while this guy is blatantly rdming
The reason you got slain was because you did commit RDM and metagaming. Although they did RDM at that point, they were not actively shooting you and you didn't have a valid reason to shoot back. You can't right by doing a wrong.

6. Juan Deag says get fukt Hymen
I did not see this, there were tons of reports, and I was trying to handle those along with Gilbert.

7. Juan Deag gets banned for group trolling
After some investigation I did see that Juan Deag was actively participating Group Trolling with a different user and handled it according.



Again, this is not for sending repercussions toward 8bitfox. 8Bitfox, I do not hold grudges against mods/admins you guys do this for free and you have handled numerous reports for me and against me. 8bit is never biased. I just hope this is taken as a learning experience because this could have been handled better. You could have removed the slays and we could have discussed the situation at hand instead I served two slays for a mass troll/rdmer who then gets banned.
I understand, but you still broke the rules and had to be punished accordingly. Believe me, I was trying my best to talk to you in psay and handle the many reports coming in, and investigate Juan Deag. I apologize if you thought I was ignoring you or not handling the report correctly, I just did what I believe was right.

Hope that covers everything. If you have any questions or concerns, please let me know and I'll respond to them. I'll be tagging my admin @roy to handle this report.
 

Sir Hymen Buster

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8Bitfox: i do not want this to be an argument and more of a discussion. I hope I don't insult you in anyways and I am sorry that this would put you in defensive in anyway.

1. That shows the rdm report on Gilbert from this gut but not the report against me. I still had two reports against me at the time from this guy including this first rdm kill on Gilbert.
2. All the way up to 11 seconds it clearly shows that this person is shooting at the direction of several people, including within 20 degrees of me which is shooting my direction. It clearly shows that this person is attacking multiple people. He has already been reported and commented in voice chat and regular chat as openly shooting people the rounds before.
3. Again, shooting multiple innos and already known rdmer for mutliple rounds.
4. I clearly show multiple screenshots that show me actively messaging of the situation. You could have removed the slay and we could have discussed, and if I was in the wrong I would have served the slays. I also felt justification after the fact here:

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5. Again, the guy has already been reported, it was actively said in voice chat that this guy has rdmed several rounds in a row and was actively rdming. And I don't care was I in the area, and a bullet clearly killed other innos and the bullets were within 20 degrees of me? He was actively shooting others and my direction.
7. You never responded to me until I was already had been slain twice and after the guy was banned. I asked multiple times for a second opinion and did not get a response.

Plenty of regulars were there, and none of them will side with your decision. I am not saying that I am right and you're wrong. But the fact of the matter is this could have been a discussion on the full situation at hand instead this was handled without justification of the full situation.

Research study: 1337
 
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Sir Hymen Buster

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Conclusion: I felt insulted. I do not wish anything against 8bit. I am not a Saint....clearly. Just look at my 2020 in SGM (apologies for 2020 excessive drunkness and slurs). 8Bit and I want what's best for the server. I am not a mod but I just wish that me saying "this person is toxic" would be taken more seriously and we can have an active conversation instead of me serving two slays for a mass rdmer and a group troller.
 

8BitF0x

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1. That shows the rdm report on Gilbert from this gut but not the report against me. I still had two reports against me at the time from this guy including this first rdm kill on Gilbert.
Ah, my apologies, I didn't read that right. I did not handle that report, but I saw it was invalid.

2. All the way up to 11 seconds it clearly shows that this person is shooting at the direction of several people, including within 20 degrees of me which is shooting my direction. It clearly shows that this person is attacking multiple people. He has already been reported and commented in voice chat and regular chat as openly shooting people the rounds before.
3. Again, shooting multiple innos and already known rdmer for mutliple rounds
There were no reports of this, so I just assumed it the people who were killed were fine with it. I heard no-one complain in voice chat or text chat until your report came in then I started to keep a close eye.

4. I clearly show multiple screenshots that show me actively messaging of the situation. You could have removed the slay and we could have discussed, and if I was in the wrong I would have served the slays.
7. You never responded to me until I was already had been slain twice and after the guy was banned. I asked multiple times for a second opinion and did not get a response.
You contradicted yourself with the screenshots you provided. You can see me talking to you about your slay and why I thought it was justified. The times you asked for a multiple opinion, I assume you were asking Gilbert to handle it, I'm not sure why I'm in the wrong if that's the case.

5. Clearly, your awareness level was lacking. Again, the guy has already been reported, it was actively said in voice chat that this guy has rdmed several rounds in a row and was actively rdming. And I don't care was I in the area, and a bullet clearly killed other innos and the bullets were within 20 degrees of me? He was actively shooting others and my direction.
Yes, the guy has been reported, but I didn't handle those reports and I saw they were marked as invalid so thought nothing of it.

Unfortunately, what you said was correct, but in the rules it states that the detective has to have the intent to kill you. Watching the deathscene it looked like the detective T-baited you and fled, and you opened fire and killed them even with them running away.

2. You may kill a detective if they are shooting at you with an intention to kill.

Also, you are clearly trying to justify that you investigated after the fact, yet this comment says it all.:
I did, and I saw that the current reports that were against Juan Deag were invalid and all the innocents he killed that round did not in fact reported them.

Conclusion: I felt insulted. I do not wish anything against 8bit. I am not a Saint....clearly. Just look at my 2020 in SGM (apologies for 2020 excessive drunkness and slurs). 8Bit and I want what's best for the server. I am not a mod but I just wish that me saying "this person is toxic" would be taken more seriously.
I'm sorry you felt insulted. Perhaps my slay reason was not professional and could've been handled better. I will do better next time.
 

Sir Hymen Buster

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3. Most of regulars do not report. It was said multiple times in voice chat but Gilbert and you had multiple reports to handle at the time so your focus will go there.
7. The screenshots are not in order. But there was enough confusion on both ends that we could have discussed this further. I had two reports from the guy on me at the time and I did ask several times for someone else to handle the report. It was nothing on you but I was not getting single explanation of anything. I was slain and this toxic player mocked me and then the toxic player was banned for what I said in my response and chats.
5. Killed two other people and shot my direction within 20 degrees of me is T baiting? Metagaming would be intentionally trying to kill the detective or letting innos into the traitor room. This was clearly not the case.


I'm sorry you felt insulted. Perhaps my slay reason was not professional and could've been handled better. I will do better next time.

This whole situation could have been handled better by both you and I. I will do better to communicate my justification for killing someone on reports especially toxic players/ mass rdmers instead of just saying "this person is toxic and needs to go." I hope that the awareness of the situation is fully sought after by all mods, and admins going forward. I was slain two rounds for a person who was openly rdming for several rounds/second map and then was banned for group trolling/ mass rdm while I was still serving the second slay because I stopped him for rdming myself and others.
 
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roy

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I’ve seen this and will respond as soon as I finish chapter 9.

(Probably tomorrow, I’m busy tonight)
 

AllOfYourMoney

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Hey I see I was added to this.

I will give some background from what I saw.

It did seem like 8BitF0x and Gilbert were a bit overwhelmed with reports when Juan Deag and his idiot companion decided to go on an rdm spree. I don't blame Gilbert and 8Bit for handling reports - I know there were a lot. I think I got >4 dumb ones during that period myself.
However, it did seem like they lost awareness of what was going on around them. I did not see the interaction with Juan Deag and Hymen and I won't pretend to. What I did see was Juan Deag and idiot companion go and shoot anything that moved. They were consistently rdming for multiple rounds.

Usually staff on this server are pretty quick to smite and slay rdmers especially if they are just popping off. But we are talking several rounds in a row (I believe 3 before they were banned? Maybe 4?). It got to a point where I was annoyed, I started just constantly queueing my mic and saying "Mods ban these players. They are mass rdming. They are blatant as fuck. Please ban them" or something along those lines. I think @capri sun would even be able to say how annoying I was during this round because I was just tired of it. I had to say that numerous times over 2 rounds before they finally started focusing on some of the behavior/reports of Juan Deag and his friend. When I say numerous times... I mean I had to say it WAAAY TOO MANY TIMES.

In my opinion, I don't think 8Bit or Gilbert did a bad job. I don't know how many reports they were handling or any background information. I do think they could have done a better job, but I think if I was a moderator I could've likely been in the exact same position. So I do not blame them being distracted.

However, in my opinion, Sir Hymen should have at least received an apology for the slays. While yes the rules are black and white, I feel like this server is routinely going more towards a gray understanding of the rules. That, and when the moderation team is not handling some mass rdmers, and Sir Hymen does, I don't think he should receive 2 slays and a too bad so sad "agreed, but unfortunately metagaming". Maybe at least look at all the different reports/damagelogs regarding the players who are clearly shooting anything with a pulse, prior to dealing out punishment to someone who just wants to play the game? You left the rdmers unpunished and enabled for the next two+ rounds. Then I had to murder them and nearly got killed for doing so. On my T round, one nearly killed me for walking down an alley; I am very lucky they were such a shitty player. I immediately knew they were shooting anything and anyone, and reported before the round was even over. In the immediate next round they nearly ruined it for me again, because I killed one of them for rdming and I nearly got killed for it. They proceeded to even report me for that. I think even a cursory glance of how they were reporting/responding to reports, and talking in chat such as telling Hymen to "Get Fucked" should have given the mods a decent idea of what was going on with these two players, because as I had said previously and over VOIP, they were blatant for multiple rounds.

I'll even step back for a moment. Two players decide to ruin the game for everyone else. One player decides to stop them. That player is punished. The two players then proceed to continue ruining people's rounds for multiple rounds. These two players nearly ruined two consecutive rounds for me personally. That doesn't seem right does it? I'm quite familiar with the rules so I am not coming at this with an argument of the outline of the rules, rather, I am coming with an argument on what is right and what is wrong in this situation. The right thing in this situation, if everything was done perfectly, would have been to step back, wait a moment, and look at all the different details prior to doling out punishment. Slays are supposed to be a discouragement right? Well, you discouraged a regular who was just playing the game, and encouraged two mass rdmer's to continue with reckless abandon. We can even see they were clearly encouraged as they kept going and started shit talking Hymen in chat. That isn't right. While slaying Hymen does seem reasonable within a black and white context of the rules, it doesn't seem right when looking at the big picture and the overall outcome here, of once again, encouraging rule breakers and discouraging server regulars.

If I was in Hymen's position, and killed the rdming detective and received 2 rounds of slays - I would be annoyed. If I was slain for 2 rounds AND simultaneously the rdming detective got slayed/banned, I would say that is harsh, but fair. That is the rules after all. But Hymen only got the former outcome and got to watch from spectator as these guys continued what they were doing. They were only banned after some people were vocal enough (me) and enough reports came in to make it un-ignorable.

TL;DR Moderating is difficult. But please don't punish our regulars for playing the game and make them not want to play on the server while rule breakers can do as they wish.
 

roy

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I've read through every chapter of the report and it was quite the rollercoaster. I'll try to type enough for a fitting epilogue.

But seriously - @Sir Hymen Buster I respect that you enjoy your time with the community and your time on AHG enough to make posts with this kind of effort. I can tell from the amount of detail you included and the way you approached this situation that you care about how we're staffing and ensuring we're doing right by our regulars as well and I appreciate it.

As far as the report goes, I'm marking this one invalid as 8Bit did follow the guidelines as far as punishment goes. The detective may have damaged other people, they may have t-baited you, but they did not damage you with intent to kill which is what our rules currently require for inno v. det kills to be valid. So from a purely objective standpoint, @8BitF0x did nothing wrong, a rule was broken and you were slain for it as it's not up to non-staff to enforce punishments when others break the rules.

That having been said, it's clear that with all of the background you provided this was a problem player and 8Bit could have potentially used his discretion to keep from slaying you (or at least reduced from 2 slays to 1). But from looking at the report history and what was going on, it was clearly a busy time and we don't always have time to dig into every little detail and debate every slay. We'll always take the time to discuss reports, but if a rule is broken and a punishment is given, sometimes it just is what it is. Something I'll reinforce to 8bit (and the rest of my team as well) is that if there are situations like this where a slay is debatable, I'd rather them not slay, because it's easier to add a slay down the line if it's contested later in a report. But obviously at this point, I can't take your slays away.

As staff, we're basically just regulars who enjoy playing enough that we want to chip in and help make sure the rules are followed and maintain a fun playing environment. I think it's clear from 8Bit's actions he didn't see this as anything more than just slaying you for breaking a rule (which is what we're supposed to be doing), but as I mentioned I'll reiterate to my team that the playing experience is the priority and that I would have had no problem with 8Bit seeking discretion to remove your slays because of the reporting player's toxicity.

Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss any further, but I'm going to go ahead and close this thread.
 

RyanHighman

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There was some clarification that was asked to be made in terms of "Metagaming." The extra slay you got was not because of metagaming and the term was incorrectly used when applying the protocol of 2 slays for intentional Detective RDM. Although most instances of intentional detective RDM are also cases of metagaming, that is not the case here. You were attempting to aid the innocents by killing a player who you believed to be RDMing. The confusion comes from the spirit of the protocol, as it was added with metagaming largely in mind. The result is the same, so it doesnt matter much, but I feel like the rule clarification is important, as metagaming is making a move that intentionally works against your assigned team.
 
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